Que se passe-t-il au Moyen-Orient ?

[artza]

Certes on peut dans une certaine mesure comparer les israéliens aux pieds-noirs mais aussi aux caldoches, aux afrikaners et même aux cosaques ou aux allemands de la Volga!

Tout dépend du moment, de quoi on parle et à qui, et ce que l'on veut démontrer.

La comparaison avec les pieds-noirs en montre toutes les limites de ce genre de comparaison.

Il n'y a jamais eu d'Etat pied-noir, ni de langue pied-noire. Les pieds-noirs étaient citoyens français. Les israéliens (quelques uns sont français ou américains) mais le grand nombre sont israéliens c'est tout.

Oui, les israéliens peuvent être un jour contraint au départ comme les pieds-noirs ou les allemands des Sudétes (dans des conditions infiniment plus dramatique) ce que LO aurait peut-être dit si "LO était allemande".

Ce que personne de sensés ne peut souhaiter et surtout pas des communistes les plus sensés de tous.

[zeanticpe]

j'ai eu moins de courage que Zeanticpe et j'ai lu de loin en loin...je ne réagis que sur ce dernier post.

Les travailleurs palestinens peuvent apparaître privilégiés par rapport aux travailleurs palestinens (ou aux pauvres, car peu ont la possibilité de travailler, vu l'occupation !). Mais les travailleurs français qui passent parfois des vacances aux Canaries paraissent forcémernt privilégiés par rapport aux rescapés des divers pays d'Afrique qui s'échouents sur leurs plages. Il n'empêche que les prolétaires d'occident ne sont pas responsables mais victimes eux aussi des malheurs créés par leur impérialisme, et que nous devons avoir une politique à proposer pour unir tous les prolétaires de la terre.

Il est donc contre-productif, pour nous, de chercher à comparer les israéliens et les pieds-noirs. Ou à les traiter de colonialistes, ce que Zeanticpe ne fait pas mais que d'autres ont fait plus ou moins dans le débat. Ceux qui sont colonialistes, bien sûr, nous les combattrions si nous étions en Israël. Mais nous devrions essayer de montrer aux travailleurs israéliens qu'eux aussi sont victimes de l'oppression subie par les palestiniens. Parce que le budget est mangé par l'armée, au détriment des budgets sociaux. Parce que leurs fils et leurs filles vont passer trois ans à l'armée là où nous nous en passons. Parce qu'ils y meurent. Parce que les bombes et la haine qu'ils ont semée leur retombe dessus. Parce que du coup, les Sharon et les jusqu'aux-boutistes prennent le haut du pavé. Et que les bigots imposent leur loi.

Bref, en partant de leurs propres problèmes, nous devrions leur montrer pourquoi un peuple qui en opprime un autre ne peut être un peuple libre.

Et ce serait la meilleure aide à apporter aux Palestiniens. La sale guerre du Vietnam s'est arrêtée lorsque les GI's ont refusé d'y aller. Pas parce que les vietnamiens avaient vaincu militairement l'impérialisme, ce qui est quasi impossible.

oui,
merci Ottokar.
Tu réponds bien à ma question et j'y vois un peu plus clair.
Je parle comme je pense et je manque beaucoup de compétence et de compréhension sur le sujet.
Ta réponse et aussi celle de Artza et de Com sur le sujet me paraissent très pertinentes.
Aussi il faut le dire parce que j'ai confiance dans les idées de LO.
Il n'empêche que la position de Pastorius ébranle tout de même mes idées.
Je m'explique, je pars de ce constat:
L'état d'Israël a été construit de toutes pièces dans les intérêts de la bourgeoisie anglaise, francaise(en partie) et americaine.
Le peuple juif qui habite aujourd'hui Israël n'a pas tellement eu à y gagner si ce n'est une vie dans l'insécurité et dans la haine des peuples qui l'entourent.
En cela, je rends les impérialismes occidentaux entièrement responsables.
On est tous humains sur ce forum, et on pense aux gens, je ne parle même pas de la classe ouvrière en disant cela.
Et on doit se prononcer pour un avenir à l'humanité.
La thèse de Pastorius, ce que j'en comprends, est de dire que le cas du conflit Israëlo-Palestinien est comparable au conflit blancs/noirs en Afrique du sud.
Et que Trostky disait à l'époque :" il faut créer un état ouvrier noir dans lequel les ouvriers ouvriers blancs peuvent intervenir à condition qu'ils reconnaissent cet état" (je résume de mémoire de manière tres approximative).
Pastorius se sert de cela. Et moi j'oppose à cela "ce n'est pas du tout la même chose car les ouvriers israëliens ne vivent pas sur le dos des ouvriers palestiniens".
Donc on n'est pas du tout dans le même cas de figure.
On est dans un cas de figure d'opposition nationaliste entre deux peuples.
Dans ce cas là, on n'a aucun intérêt à défendre le nationalisme palestinien en tant que démarche révolutionnaire.
On doit les soutenir face à l'état d'Israël en tant que peuple opprimé, oui.
Mais pas plus.
Par contre on peut aussi dénoncer violemment l'attitude de leurs chefs qui ne se sont jamais adressés aux ouvriers des autres populations arabes et au ouvriers israëliens.
je vois cela comme ca mais je suis pas sûr.
et j'ai l'impression que Pastorius utilise une citation de Trostky qui exprimait un cas très particulier de manière extrême à mauvais escient.
Enfin quand Pastorius parle de détruire l'état d'Israël, je suis bien entendu d'accord puisqu'on a pour tâche de détruire TOUS les états bourgeois (en Jrodanie aussi, en Egypte aussi, etc..)
Edit:
Mais j'ajoute que j'écris cela sans avoir vraiment compris ce que dit Trotsky à propos de l'Afrique du Sud et sur la position des révolutionnaire à l'époque.
Re edit:
je mets le lien sur la comparaison avec l'Afrique du Sud qui ne me parait pas clair:
Pastorius : Ecrit le : dimanche 6 août 2006 à 17:09

[clavez]

J'ai touvé ça, ce matin. AIC est le grouê de Michel Warshawski.

The Other Front

A report on the war by the Alternative Information Center

Online at: http://alternativenews.org/index.php?optio...d=505&Itemid=88

SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY

In his column titled “Little Satan Has Big Teeth,” Ha’aretz columnist Yoel Marcus summarizes the Israeli perception of the present war in Lebanon:

By now, it is clear this war is not about Lebanon. Hezbollah is not a local terrorist organization but an operative arm of Iran, Syria, Al-Qaida and the instigators of the attack on the Twin Towers. Israel is not just safeguarding Kiryat Shmona, Hadera and maybe Tel Aviv. It has been forced to become a partner in the war on fire-and-brimstone Islamic fundamentalism and what Bush calls the ‘axis of evil’ in this part of the world (Ha’aretz, 8 August 2006).

One of the most common descriptions of this war in the media, as well as within speeches of the political leadership, is “existential war.” Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert repeats this mantra day in and day out: we are not fighting for the security of the Israeli people, but for all the Jews around the world. Twin Towers, Masada, Auschwitz. No less.

Already three weeks ago, Israeli political scientist, Ze’ev Sternhall, warned against this phenomenon. He asked how it was possible that what was supposed to be a limited operation in retaliation for the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, became, within Israeli rhetoric and public opinion, a war for the very existence of Israel.

It does beg the question of whether this position is mere propaganda, or, on the contrary, there is a true belief that the very existence of Israel is at stake, and, perhaps, even of the Jewish people throughout the world.

Yet, Israel is one the biggest military powers in the world, supported by the US hyper-power and enjoying massive international assistance and friendship. The Israeli military behaves as if the Middle East were its own private playground, attacking, invading and destroying all that is in its way, and threatening to punish larger countries such as Syria and Iran if they dare to interfere in Israel’s plans. Who is threatening whom? It really does appear, sound and smell like cheap propaganda.

Nevertheless, one can assume that Olmert, Peretz and Marcus do believe that Israel’s existence is in danger. “We are a villa in heart of the jungle” declared former Israeli PM Ehud Barak to European journalists three years ago. Let’s ignore, for a moment, the profoundly racist dimension of such a statement, and relate to the self-perception of Israel: a villa in the heart of the jungle is, indeed, in an existential danger and must conduct a permanent preemptive war against the threat of the jungle, its wild animals, poisonous snakes and savages.

Victims of the neoconservative and Christian-fundamentalist picture of the world, the Israeli leaders, propagandists and “experts” are haunted by a ghost: the global terrorist threat, fully identified with Islamic civilization. They are paralyzed by a true existential fear, not only for themselves, but for the whole “civilized world,” often labeled “the democratic system.”

Yet, a threat is not an enemy: against an enemy you can fight back, win victories, reach compromises; it is a matter of a relation of forces. A threat, however, is unidentifiable, omnipresent and permanent; something with which you have to conduct an ongoing war until it is totally eradicated or succeeds in eradicating you. In this phantasmic view, however, you can never win against terror—like the Hydra, every head which is cut off is replaced by two more heads.

Ghosts, dragons, threats—it sounds like nonsense and it looks like madness. Indeed, but fears create reactions, and reactions transform a ghost into reality.

The perception of the whole Middle East as a jungle that threatens Israel’s very existence leads almost inevitably to a preemptive brutal war of aggression, which in turn provokes reaction, resistance and retaliation. This reaction to preemptive aggression will automatically confirm the initial fear.

The present Lebanese war is a tragic example of such a paranoiac logic, a paranoia not limited to the Middle East. The neoconservatives of the White House created the clash of civilizations myth to justify their strategy of re-colonization of the world, and identified the whole Muslim world as terrorists and a threat to “civilization and democracy.” One of the predictable outcomes, sooner or later, will be the emergence of a formidable Muslim faction and a global counter-offensive to protect their own “civilization” against the new “barbarian” crusade. Israel will be their first target. This is precisely what is known as a self-fulfilling prophecy.


PALESTINIANS IN ISRAEL

A 1948 Palestinian mother and her son were killed by a rocket in the village of Deir El-Assad in the north of Israel

On Thursday morning, 10 August, a rocket on Deir El-Assad killed a mother and her three-year old son. Since the beginning of the attacks on Lebanon, 15 Palestinian citizens of Israel have been killed.

Eleven other people were wounded in the attack, including the four-year-old brother of the boy who was killed. The brother was seriously hurt. The dead woman’s mother in law was also seriously injured. One other person was moderately injured and suffered light wounds.


Nasrallah called on the Arab residents of Haifa to evacuate the Israeli city

Nasrallah called on the Arab residents of Haifa to evacuate the Israeli city to avoid being injured by Hezbollah rocket fire. “I have a special message for the Arabs of Haifa, to your martyrs and to your wounded. I call you to leave this city. I hope you do this. [...] Please leave so we don’t shed your blood, which is our blood.”


Discriminatory policies against Arab neighborhood in Karmiel continue during War in Lebanon

The Arab towns, villages and neighborhoods in Israel suffer from discrimination and neglect, in particular that of infrastructure. This discrimination has continued during Israel’s current war in Lebanon.

The residents of al-Ramyah neighborhood, located in the center of the Jewish town of Karmiel, suffer from harsh conditions. Eight families, numbering 60 individuals, live in this neighborhood. They live in makeshift homes, constructed from zinc and asbestos that barely keep out rain in the winter and are overly hot in the summer. The municipality of Karmiel is attempting to expel the residents of al-Ramyah from their lands in order to establish a new neighborhood in its place.


Incitement against Arab MKs continues

The campaign of racial incitement initiated by Jewish MKs against Arab MKs is ongoing. Knesset minister, Rafael Eitan, from the Pensioners’ Party, incited against MK Dr. Ahmad Tibi of the Arab Movement for Renewal (Ta’al) on IDF Radio. Eitan accused MK Tibi of supporting Hezbollah and being against the Israeli public. This incitement came as a follow-up to an article written by Jewish journalist, Ben Kaspit, in which the journalist attacked MK Tibi.


Arab scholar Ghazi Falah, arrested by Israel, is finally freed

The Haifa District Court approved on Wednesday, 26 July, the removal of a gag order on the case of Professor Ghazi Falah. Professor Falah, an Israeli-Canadian scholar who currently lives and works in the US, was accused of “taking pictures of sensitive sites and suspected of being a Hezbollah agent.”

Professor Ghazi Falah, who was born in the village of ‘Arab al-Heib in the Galilee, is a geography lecturer. From 1991 – 2002, he lived and taught in Canada, following which he began teaching at the University of Akron in Ohio, US. The police and Shin Bet (General Security Service) claim that Professor Falah took photos of a military antenna in the area of Ras al-Naqoura (Rosh HaNikra); he had also visited Teheran and Beirut less than two years ago. Professor Falah said he was there taking photos for academic reasons. Professor Falah’s colleagues say that his travels to Arab countries were public information and fell within the framework of his academic work, as he dealt with the geography in the Middle East. During some of his travels he was accompanied by American colleagues, one of who was Professor Alexander Murphy, the former president of the Association of American Geographers.



IN THE OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES

During the last week, the Israeli authorities arrested Dr. Azzez Dowaiak, Chairman of the Palestinian Legislative Council. According to Palestinian Authority sources, Dowaiak was beaten by Israeli soldiers and subsequently had to spend some time in the hospital.

Intensive Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip have continued. Twenty-three Palestinians were killed, 64 injured, and 74 arrested, the majority by air force attacks and tank fire.

The Rafah crossing in Gaza has been closed now for six weeks, in spite of statements from the international observers responsible for monitoring the crossing, that it will be open on 9 or 10 August. This continuing closure detrimentally affects the already dire social and economic situation in the Gaza Strip.

Meanwhile, there are ongoing closures in the West Bank. Tens of new checkpoints have been created throughout the West Bank.

During the past week, Jewish settlers have continued their attacks on Palestinians around the West Bank. One Palestinian from the north of West Bank was killed and his son injured due to settler attacks.

This week, the Israeli military closed Ramallah and entered with many tanks and jeeps. During this incursion, the military arrested what they claimed was an active member of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. In Jenin, two Palestinians were killed when an airplane shelled a house in the camp.

Israeli demolition of Palestinian homes in Gaza, especially in Rafah, is continuing apace. Soldiers have advised families to leave their homes immediately, after which their homes will be demolished. Due to this policy, hundreds of people have vacated their homes. In some cases, the Israeli military has carried out the demolitions of these homes, yet in other cases, the demolition was never carried out, but the family members were forced to leave anyway. Thousands of homeless Palestinians now gather in several schools, especially those belonging to UNRWA. International organizations, including UNRWA, have given alerts that the social and economic situation in the Gaza Strip is deteriorating to dangerous levels.



IN THE PEACE CAMP

Growing opposition to the War in Lebanon

A month after the beginning of the war in Lebanon, Meretz and Peace Now are joining, for the first time, a public protest against the military operations in Lebanon. Up to this point, the two groups had refused any official statement of opposition to the war. At the beginning of the current war, Meretz, Peace Now and other Zionist Left organizations supported the war and believed that Israel’s attacks were legitimate, citing broad public support for the war among the Israeli public and the fact that Israel “had no choice.”

The Israeli government’s decision on 9 August to expand and prolong the war in Lebanon, however, led the Zionist Left to change its mind about the war. Nonetheless, Peace Now’s decision to join the protest is symbolic, as the movement refuses to identify itself with radical left-wing groups.

Peace Now Secretary-General, Yariv Oppenheimer, stated on Thursday, 10 August, that in light of the cabinet’s decision to expand the military operation in Lebanon, his group would participate in that evening’s protest, which was called by the selective refusenik movement “Courage to Refuse” (Ometz L’sarev). This protest in front of the Ministry of Defense in Tel Aviv is an effort to unite those who opposed the war from the start with those who feel that now is the time to stop it, including groups such as Rabbis for Human Rights, a religious group very active against the occupation, which until now has not adopted a position regarding the war in Lebanon.

During the past month, the Israeli government has enjoyed broad public support. Yet, public support has been eroding, to some degree, due to growing personal and economic hardship and the failure of the Israeli military to stop Hezbollah from shelling the north of Israel. But, from the beginning, anti-colonial activists have demonstrated against the war in Gaza and Lebanon and managed to mobilize thousands of protestors.

The rising cost of lives during this war and the prospects of many more dead soldiers in the circumstances of a large-scale ground invasion of Lebanon, change the position of the Zionist Left. Meretz Faction Chairwoman MK Zahava Gal-On said Wednesday, “it is forbidden to enter Lebanon by ground because the move will cost a bloody price and Katyusha rockets will continue to fall on Israel. We failed in the ground offensive until now and if we enter we won’t be able to leave” (“Meretz, Peace Now to join anti-war protest,” ynetnews.com, 10 August).



THE OTHER FRONT IS A WEEKLY REPORT PUBLISHED BY THE ALTERNATIVE INFORMATION CENTER ON THE ISRAELI WAR IN PALESTINE AND LEBANON AND DISSENTING VOICES


Subscriptions: [AIC News Update]

Tout ça pour dire que lesyndrôme de Massala (le suicide collectif de la dernière garnison hébreu face à l'armée romaine), peut avoir de beau jour devant lui. Et le sionisme aussi.
Défaite des armes israeliennes? en tout cas le sud Liban sera bel et bien occupé par les principeaux alliés d'Israël, sous couvert de l'ONU.

[com_71]

Trotsky disait à l'époque :" il faut créer un état ouvrier noir dans lequel les ouvriers ouvriers blancs peuvent intervenir à condition qu'ils reconnaissent cet état" (je résume de mémoire de manière très approximative).
Ca c'est plutôt ce que Pastorius veut y lire, ce n'est pas ce que Trotsky écrivait.

[zeanticpe]

A te lire Convive, on devrait presque crier victoire.
Les classe ouvières du moyen-Orient ont vécu, une fois de plus un drame.
Un drame dont l'issue ne leur apportera rien. rien du tout.
L'armée Israelienne n'est pas venue à bout des Hezbollah, mais elle a terrorisé une population entière. Et probablement la France et les USA et je sais pas qui vont vouloir terminer ce sale boulot.
Les méthodes des Hezbollah qui tirent à l'aveugle sur la population israëlienne montre qu'ils n'ont rien à envier à l'armée Israëlienne.
Et si le Hezbollah peut attirer une partie des travailleurs libanais, ca ne me réjouit pas non plus, car ce sera encore pour les écraser et les faire rentrer dans le rang.
Ce que l'on pourrait espérer c'est que les travailleurs israëliens (tu en parles d'ailleurs et là je suis d'accord) et les travailleurs libanais et palestiniens se soulèvent ensemble contre leurs généraux, contre la guerre et contre l'impérialisme.

[Barikad]

Défaite des armes israeliennes? en tout cas le sud Liban sera bel et bien occupé par les principeaux alliés d'Israël, sous couvert de l'ONU.
Pour l'instant, le Sud Liban est surtout (ré) occupé par Tsahal, le gouvernement Israelien ayant annoncé qu'il ne retirerait ses troupes que si une force "internationale" puissament armé et mandaté venait la remplacer, et qu'il se laissait le droit de revenir quand bon leur semble...